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Death Spiral at Worldmark.

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 PostPosted: Tue 16 Jun 2020 5:42 pm   
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Joined: Sat 18 Feb 2012 1:26 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Vancouver, WA
Is it possible that the value of a Worldmark ownership could become negative? We have all seen the value go down on a constant trajectory. The secondary market is approaching zero, and you can no longer "rent" your credits for enough to cover maintenance dues. Here is the big question; if you quit paying dues can you be held liable for them beyond only being locked out of property usage? The answer to this question is critical. If it is "yes", we could be in trouble. An owner would be unable to even "walk away" from a paid-for contract, it would become more liability than asset. You would not be able to give it away for free. This could cause a negative value and cause real hardship. Where will the bottom be on credit value, both for sale and rent, and where is the bottom on ratio of dues/credit rental? If it gets much lower I could see a rush on unloading memberships and a terminal death spiral for Worldmark.


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 PostPosted: Tue 16 Jun 2020 6:04 pm   

Joined: Sun 17 Apr 2011 1:52 pm
Posts: 388
Location: Nanaimo BC
Worldmark is one of the few timeshares that has residual value on the secondary market. A browse through TUG resale listings shows tons of listings of ( non worldmark) timeshares for $1.00 and offering to pay transfer fees, so in essence the negative value you mention. In the short term, I think we will find that's the case for Worldmark, especially as the " mega Renters" unload their accounts if, through the coming change in guest fees they are unable to rent their high demand weeks within 48 hrs of booking them. Most Wyndham timeshares have little or no resale value. Marriott, Disney and HGVC are the exceptions with strong resale value still.

In the long term our credits may rebound, but between Covid and guest use policies, its going to be a bumpy ride for a while.

While I would expect HOA board to normally protect the value of an asset, a zero value resale market benefits Wyndham as they can pick up credits for nothing and sell them for whatever the market will bear by dressing them up with questionably value add ons like travel share. Unfortunately our board has consistently taken the view whats good for Wyndham is good for Worldmark, and until we have an independent board that is unlikely to change.

In the meantime, if you look at your initial investment as a write off, as long as maintenance fees allow better stays at cheaper costs then hotels or AirBnB you are still ahead.

C

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"In view of life's uncertainties, always eat dessert first"
Worldmark the Club: the best most flexible timeshare system anywhere
WMowners.com:Owners helping owners. Thank you to all


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 PostPosted: Tue 16 Jun 2020 7:14 pm   

Joined: Tue 19 Mar 2019 8:17 pm
Posts: 137
andrewoftheblue wrote:
Is it possible that the value of a Worldmark ownership could become negative?

Yes. The power of compounding @ 5% MF increase per year will do that.

I feel like we have maybe 5-7 years left to use WM in an advantageous way. I believe even now many shoulder season weeks in small sized units are overpriced and not worth booking even with bonus time.

I feel sad that I discovered WM when there is only limited value left to get out of the membership. The flexibility is the most important value available in WM over hotels/Airbnb.


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 PostPosted: Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:05 am   

Joined: Tue 16 Sep 2014 8:34 am
Posts: 79
Location: NYC
andrewoftheblue wrote:
Is it possible that the value of a Worldmark ownership could become negative?


Yes, it is possible.

The continued addition of new WM restrictions and fees have made our credits less valuable to both mega renters and small owners alike. As a result, there is less demand for credits and hence an on-going reduction of value and price. Moreover, the current COVID-19 situation greatly reduces travel demand which means that credit values are going to reduce much further.

While COVID-19 will (hopefully) pass, all the WM restrictions and fees will be here with us permanently. Due to the fees and restrictions, the future direction of WM value has decreased significantly for me. As a result, I will never buy new credits - even resale. I expect many other owners are thinking along similar lines which does not bode well for the future of WM.

I believe that in trying to combat mega renters, the destruction of value to regular owners has been substantial. We were able to more or less co-exist with mega renters in the past but everyone wanted to make the mega-renters lives harder. In doing so, we also made our ownership less valuable and more costly. Not a good situation that we are in with no change in the downward direction of our credit values expected looking forward.


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 PostPosted: Wed 17 Jun 2020 8:16 am   

Joined: Tue 09 Apr 2013 8:42 pm
Posts: 15
Location: Oregon
Marathoner,

Very well said! Not feeling overly "warm and fuzzy" about our ownership recently either.

Sue

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 PostPosted: Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:36 am   

Joined: Tue 06 May 2014 2:12 pm
Posts: 2156
Location: Salem, Oregon
Marathoner wrote:
andrewoftheblue wrote:
Is it possible that the value of a Worldmark ownership could become negative?


Yes, it is possible.

The continued addition of new WM restrictions and fees have made our credits less valuable to both mega renters and small owners alike. As a result, there is less demand for credits and hence an on-going reduction of value and price. Moreover, the current COVID-19 situation greatly reduces travel demand which means that credit values are going to reduce much further.

While COVID-19 will (hopefully) pass, all the WM restrictions and fees will be here with us permanently. Due to the fees and restrictions, the future direction of WM value has decreased significantly for me. As a result, I will never buy new credits - even resale. I expect many other owners are thinking along similar lines which does not bode well for the future of WM.

I believe that in trying to combat mega renters, the destruction of value to regular owners has been substantial. We were able to more or less co-exist with mega renters in the past but everyone wanted to make the mega-renters lives harder. In doing so, we also made our ownership less valuable and more costly. Not a good situation that we are in with no change in the downward direction of our credit values expected looking forward.


We believe that every change over the last 8 or so years (including the reduction in Wait Lists, the GC policy, the recent multiple reservation policy, the 2X limitation on transfers in/out, etc, etc, etc) have had more of a negative effect on the average or small owner than the megarenters. I doubt that any of the changes have had any effect on a Member of the WM BOD. I bet they get any Reservation where and when they want it.

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Joined Worldmark August 2002
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 PostPosted: Fri 19 Jun 2020 5:43 pm   

Joined: Sat 16 May 2020 11:32 am
Posts: 1
As someone who was almost going to buy a worldmark contract (wife vetoed it) and lives in California I see tremendous value in a worldmark.

A lot of these places Worldmark is in, like Pismo or Tahoe or Maui, building a new hotel would be a 10 year affair of zoning and neighbor complaints and whatnot.

The real problem, in my opinion, and what's keeping contract values really low, is that the demographic skews so much older for Worldmark (and all timeshares), and they're really not attracting young buyers. The decor kind of reflects that too. So marketing to young people will be the key challenge in terms of keeping the values up.


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 PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun 2020 2:19 pm   
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Joined: Tue 30 Dec 2003 11:02 am
Posts: 125
It might be a great time to buy.

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 PostPosted: Sat 27 Jun 2020 8:25 am   
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Joined: Sat 18 Sep 2010 6:11 pm
Posts: 375
Location: Bend Oregon
Marathoner wrote:
andrewoftheblue wrote:
Is it possible that the value of a Worldmark ownership could become negative?


I believe that in trying to combat mega renters, the destruction of value to regular owners has been substantial. We were able to more or less co-exist with mega renters in the past but everyone wanted to make the mega-renters lives harder. In doing so, we also made our ownership less valuable and more costly. Not a good situation that we are in with no change in the downward direction of our credit values expected looking forward.



I couldn't disagree more.
Yeah ok $$ value continues to get lower, and I disagree with and dislike higher dues and some rules.
But the whole thing with doing away with mega renters is to free up availability for owners. Obviously right now availability is much higher with covid, but it has been noticeable even before covid, the greater amount of availability. As an owner who wants to actually use and enjoy my membership, not sell credits or reservations or sell my membership I'm very happy how things are going.

I understand people own for different reasons, but I purchased Worldmark as an investment to enjoy vacations, not for a $$ investment.
Worldmark is very far from not being worth it.

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Worldmark owner since April 2010
Depoe Bay, Gleneden, Camlin, Running Y, Seaside, Mariner Village, Discovery Bay, Victoria, Kapa'a Shores, Reno, Schooner Landing, Eagle Crest, Windsor, Wolf Creek, Blaine, Clear Lake.


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 PostPosted: Fri 31 Jul 2020 2:09 pm   

Joined: Fri 31 Jul 2020 1:38 pm
Posts: 1
Agree totally with Marathoner; we try to concentrate on how much we can use our membership and now worry so much about whether it is an investment or worth more or less than we paid. We applaud any efforts to curtail mega-renters as that only increases availability for true Members of the Club. Thanks for speaking up Marathoner.


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 PostPosted: Fri 31 Jul 2020 6:08 pm   
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Joined: Fri 30 May 2014 3:52 pm
Posts: 185
Location: Eastern Washington
Plus one. =D> I'd rather have restrictions and get a reservation then have total useless freedom.

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 PostPosted: Fri 31 Jul 2020 7:50 pm   

Joined: Thu 19 Apr 2007 6:52 am
Posts: 1497
Location: Spokane, Wa.
My NHK account can handle the extra cost with these rules. Wouldn't want to be adding credits unless

price was to good to pass on.


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 PostPosted: Sun 02 Aug 2020 12:56 pm   

Joined: Sun 02 Aug 2020 12:30 pm
Posts: 3
I have heard that basically all timeshare companies will be levying assessments to their owners due to the Covid 19 situation and all the lost revenues they are experiencing.
The assessments are rumored to be in the range of 3 - 5 times the annual maintenance dues of each owner.
Has anyone else heard about this?
Apparently one timeshare company has already done this and it is widely expected that others will follow suit and will be doing this in the next 2 months.
Yikes!!


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 PostPosted: Sun 02 Aug 2020 1:07 pm   

Joined: Sun 02 Aug 2020 12:30 pm
Posts: 3
I've heard rumors that timeshare companies will be sending out special assessments to their owners in the next 2 months.
Due to all the lost revenue from Covid 19 restrictions.
These could amount from 3-5 times the annual dues for each owner.
That's a lot of money!
Has anyone here had any experience or knowledge of the Ovation program that Wyndham offers?
Trying to find out more about it without asking corporate.


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 PostPosted: Sun 02 Aug 2020 1:41 pm   

Joined: Sun 17 Apr 2011 1:52 pm
Posts: 388
Location: Nanaimo BC
eakroeker wrote:
I have heard that basically all timeshare companies will be levying assessments to their owners due to the Covid 19 situation and all the lost revenues they are experiencing.
The assessments are rumored to be in the range of 3 - 5 times the annual maintenance dues of each owner.
Has anyone else heard about this?
Apparently one timeshare company has already done this and it is widely expected that others will follow suit and will be doing this in the next 2 months.
Yikes!!



What lost revenue.....maintenance fees at Worldmark are guaranteed by Wyndham as declarant.

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"In view of life's uncertainties, always eat dessert first"
Worldmark the Club: the best most flexible timeshare system anywhere
WMowners.com:Owners helping owners. Thank you to all


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